CDI M5 Red LEDs and LOR

[surfersteve 0]

Should I have anything to worry about if I dont do much fading. I run 288 AC channels and all of my 45,000 lights are all from 2008 preorder/Customer Appreciation Sale. About 50% are 100 count C6's and the others are 50% are 100ct M5's in Red, Blue, Green and Cool White. I am worried ill bust all the lights (atleast the colors that exhibit the most problems) and kill my entire display bc they are all CDI Leds's. If I skip fades and ramps will I be ok? I sure hope they come out with a fix, these lights are amazing and so unbelievably vibrant and bright, people are going to be blown away. Thanks for all the help guys. I am also working on finding out whats wrong with all the doa's we have been seeing. Ill post more when I figure it out better.

Edited September 15, 2008 by surfersteve

[pbryan 0]

Here is an update on my testing of the C6 stings.

Every red string reacts exactly the same. As long as u keep the intensity below 50%

there is no jump in the light output as they fade up or down. This jump in intensity is very brief up/and back to current intensity level.

As a matter of fact, the green's and blues do the same thing, just not as noticeable.

The 50% seems to be a magical number here. Somewhere between 48 and 52% they all do this little, I am calling it a "bump in the night thing". And then of course they all jump on at 1-2% without being very easy about it.

So I guess if your doing fades then it will have to stay under 50%, until a remedy is found.

This is my first year with animation, been doing lights for years. Was going to keep it simple the first year, just static animation only. I can work around this, just have to re-do the sequences I have prepared.

Hope this helps anyone reading this.

I bought a lot of LEDs from Paul based on all that I have read here on PC. I think is is great of him to make the offer that he has to all of his pre-order customers. That says a lot about a person.

Does this problem only occur with fading?

In other words,

Do your red's still work fine at 100% (i.e. plugged directly into the wall, no computer control)? Or do you have to now always keep them below 50% for proper operation?

--Paul

[Bill V 65]

Has anybody tried to add a C9 or string of mini's to the LED load on a particular channel? I know I had some half wave replaceable strings and had problems with fades until I added a string of mini's to each channel running LED's.

[cars06 37]

bill i looked into that and that was a problem fixed by LOR a while back. but if its an older LOR box then it could be a fix!!

[LED Keeper 0]

Might sound like a firmware problem over the LED's having the problem.

You got to remember that LED's will react faster to power fluctuations over Mini's. The incandescence have a filament that turns on slowly because it has to heat up and off slowly when it cools down. LED's are instant ON & OFF.

If the firmware has a gap in the ramp signal you will see it in the LED better than the mini's.

The professionals which have the box on the power end do not fade any better than the replaceable C7's & C9's. Last year we burnt out 1 or 2 professional units every night.

LED's work best in fades, from my testing, between 0 percent & 50 percent. anything above that is hard to see the changes.

I have to make changes to my sequences as my display will be 95% LED's

Do somemore testing, this is interesting.

[cars06 37]

i dont know folks. i have six different brands of LEDS hooked up on a 1602 LOR and they fade from on at about 11% up wonderfully and back down to 11% and off with no problems. 1/2 wave sams/ 1/2 wave diogen/ 1/2 wave walmart/ full wave diogen/ full wave GKI flex changes/ and last but not least full wave 2007 CDI M/5's (M6's this year). its not the box. its not the extension cords. its not the firmware. and its not the atmosphere around the moon lol

[hotrod1965 44]

I think I read somewhere that the old LOR boxes need some transformer or something to work with LED correctly.

Someone should talk to LOR about this issue..

[gsxr7500 0]

How would Lor solve this issue when it only involves a certain companies lights?

[hotrod1965 44]

Have you tried other companies lights?

I know Jim has a brand new LOR box. I think this was an issue with the older boxes.

[pbryan 0]

I have 2 LOR units a CTB16D I built 2 years ago, and a CTB16PC that I just built last month. Both have the latest firmware... I don't notice the hiccup in the fades on my blue and green strings...

Also,

I talked to CDI today and they said that they have had some reports of problems with the Red M5's from this year. They were very helpful and are going to take 12 new strings and test them on their AL setup for 24 hours. That way I'm getting strings that are known to work with fades... Once they arrive I'll repost if there are any issues with my LOR setup. I would assume if they work fine on the AL setup, I shouldn't have any issues with my LOR setup...

--Paul

[hotrod1965 44]

I would never assume that if it works with AL that it will work with LOR. AL is designed for LED lights.

I would check with LOR.

[rcpandr 0]

My green CDI's m5's are not instant off. They have about a half sec. fade off when you turn them off or unplug them.

[rjm12rjm12 0]

My green CDI's m5's work the same, I did notice that the red go directly off. I have not tested any with LOR yet.

[cars06 37]

if you unplug them out of the wall and they dont go out. they arent going to go out on LOR either!! reckon the LOR box only picks out the red ones to mess with on fades?? and better yet only the red CDI lights from 2008?? i dont think so..

and fading is a big plus and a huge reason people use LOR, AL and other boxes. you wouldnt just not use that feature due to some bad lights would you??

brian i put those GKI's on the LOR like i had posted and they are as bright as the Diogens!! maybe brighter!! or it may just be the lense. but anyway they are nice!!

Edited September 16, 2008 by CARS8

[hotrod1965 44]

You better buy some more than

[LightORama 0]

There was a flicker with LEDs fading on LOR sometime back. Firmware changes were made sometime last year (or the year before) that takes care of that problem (at least with the LEDs available at the time)....

Stringer LEDs have been working well with LOR controllers for years but the manufactures of LED stringers do make changes to their products and those changes can affect their compatability.

We expect delivery of some LEDs from CDI in the next few days. As soon as we get them we will immediatly start an investigation. At this time I do not have an answer to this particular issue.

I recommend that you not fade RED M5 LEDs purchased from CDI until we undersand what is going on.

[RI_Pilot 0]

I just used three 100 LED cool white M5s that I purchased from CDI during the group buy. An interesting observation- one of the strings had a LED that was out. Since they came with spares I changed it. While the bad LED was out I plugged the string in to see how many lights would be out assuming it was in several segments. I was surprised to see the entire string of 100 lights was out. I unplugged it, inserted a replacement LED, and the entire string then lit. If all 100 LEDs are in series it would take 300+ volts to light them, these are cool white which are blue leds exciting a phosphor to get a blueish white light. These LEDs are typically a little over 3V each.

This makes me think that an AC to DC voltage multiplier is being used. These are diode-capacitor circuits that can double, triple, or more depending on how many diodes/capacitor stages are used. This would also explain the fade off when unplugged, if capacitors are being used there would be a decay in voltage as they discharged when AC is removed.

I have not tried fading them and will put this off until we hear what Dan has to say about the Reds.

I also have Red, Green, and Blue M5 50 light strings that I have not tried yet on my LOR controllers, but I plugged several strings in to see if they work, all are bright.

Howard

[cars06 37]

well is any other box maker going to test them?? AL?? D light?? do the CDI's only mess up with LOR?? why would they have changed the way the LED works ??

on another note i have Diogen cool whites and CDI 2007's that have no hint of blue ?? ive heard people say some brands do but these do not.

[paul sessel 0]

I just used three 100 LED cool white M5s that I purchased from CDI during the group buy. An interesting observation- one of the strings had a LED that was out. Since they came with spares I changed it. While the bad LED was out I plugged the string in to see how many lights would be out assuming it was in several segments. I was surprised to see the entire string of 100 lights was out. I unplugged it, inserted a replacement LED, and the entire string then lit. If all 100 LEDs are in series it would take 300+ volts to light them, these are cool white which are blue leds exciting a phosphor to get a blueish white light. These LEDs are typically a little over 3V each.

This makes me think that an AC to DC voltage multiplier is being used. These are diode-capacitor circuits that can double, triple, or more depending on how many diodes/capacitor stages are used. This would also explain the fade off when unplugged, if capacitors are being used there would be a decay in voltage as they discharged when AC is removed.

I have not tried fading them and will put this off until we hear what Dan has to say about the Reds.

I also have Red, Green, and Blue M5 50 light strings that I have not tried yet on my LOR controllers, but I plugged several strings in to see if they work, all are bright.

Howard

Howard:

Obviously you are a lot smarter about this than I am, but I think you are very close to "hitting the nail on the head." Most other brands are in series of 25 lights so you have rectifier 25 lights, rectifier 25 lights, etc, etc. With ours one could actually go to 150 lights with no rectifier in the middle. That's why on next years design, the rectifier will be built into the male and female plugs.

[hotrod1965 44]

Holiday Bright lights does thier LED's with the rectifiers in the plugs. I would guess that everyone will go that route very soon.

[cars06 37]

" talked to CDI today and they said that they have had some reports of problems with the Red M5's from this year. They were very helpful and are going to take 12 new strings and test them on their AL setup for 24 hours. That way I'm getting strings that are known to work with fades..."

PAUL>> OR PAUL. so did the reds ramp up and down fine on the AL units at CDI?? do you have any problems at all on the AL units at CDI?? or is it a LOR only problem?? any word from any other folks using other boxes??

[pbryan 0]

I just used three 100 LED cool white M5s that I purchased from CDI during the group buy. An interesting observation- one of the strings had a LED that was out. Since they came with spares I changed it. While the bad LED was out I plugged the string in to see how many lights would be out assuming it was in several segments. I was surprised to see the entire string of 100 lights was out. I unplugged it, inserted a replacement LED, and the entire string then lit. If all 100 LEDs are in series it would take 300+ volts to light them, these are cool white which are blue leds exciting a phosphor to get a blueish white light. These LEDs are typically a little over 3V each.

This makes me think that an AC to DC voltage multiplier is being used. These are diode-capacitor circuits that can double, triple, or more depending on how many diodes/capacitor stages are used. This would also explain the fade off when unplugged, if capacitors are being used there would be a decay in voltage as they discharged when AC is removed.

I have not tried fading them and will put this off until we hear what Dan has to say about the Reds.

I also have Red, Green, and Blue M5 50 light strings that I have not tried yet on my LOR controllers, but I plugged several strings in to see if they work, all are bright.

Howard

My 50 light M5's are definitely all in series. There also appears to be voltage doubling going on... I popped out the first and last LEDs in one of my red strings and a blue string, both read ~320 V DC across the entire string.

I was trying to reverse engineer the schematic to see if I could find a failed diode or something in my red strings. It's definitely more complicated than a simple bridge rectifier. So far I haven't figured much out, there are definitely diodes between the DC line (with all the series LED's) and the 2 pass through AC wires in the blob at the end of the string as I can see them on a diode test in my multimeter. I'm still having problems determining what's in the blob at the beginning of the string... I'm getting nothing in either direction on the diode test, between either AC line and the DC line. If anybody has figured out the schematic it could be helpful, or at the very least, interesting...

--Paul

[pbryan 0]

I just got a ship notice from CDI tonight... Hopefully that means they worked on their AL setup. I'll let you know when they arrive if they work with LOR...

--Paul

" talked to CDI today and they said that they have had some reports of problems with the Red M5's from this year. They were very helpful and are going to take 12 new strings and test them on their AL setup for 24 hours. That way I'm getting strings that are known to work with fades..."

PAUL>> OR PAUL. so did the reds ramp up and down fine on the AL units at CDI?? do you have any problems at all on the AL units at CDI?? or is it a LOR only problem?? any word from any other folks using other boxes??

[JBullard 0]

I've been fading my M5 reds, greens and whites with LOR the past few days. Set up 48 channels, chasing, ramping up and ramping down. No Problems

[cars06 37]

HEY john missed you at the mini mini!! that is very interesting. works on some LOR's some of the time. i just wonder if folks using other boxes are having any problems?