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CDI 2009 LED M5 Samples - PART 2


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Just adding my two cents worth:

I have about 50 strings of the 2007 M6, 50 count LEDs from Paul (in red, green and warm white).

I freakin love them. They work great on LOR, the colors are incredible and I want to buy more. Wherever those came from, I'd like to know the exact details of where they were made, who distributed them to Paul, etc, as that's what I want for all of my future minilights.

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Gary,

That's the 2007's. Everybody loves them. The theme of this discussion is the 2009's that is supposed to replace the 2008's which nobody seems to love and rightly so.

Edited by Tim_L
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I am a bit confused myself on this one - its definatly not clear from reading the forum. The letter I recieved had lead me to believe that they were going to be the 2009 strings.

As of right now - of my sets purchased - I have had a 25% failure rate on the strings. If there the same junk - well - I'll take it up as a loss and find a new vendor.

This year I need about 150 strings also.

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I am a bit confused myself on this one - its definatly not clear from reading the forum. The letter I recieved had lead me to believe that they were going to be the 2009 strings.

As of right now - of my sets purchased - I have had a 25% failure rate on the strings. If there the same junk - well - I'll take it up as a loss and find a new vendor.

This year I need about 150 strings also.

They are new strings. Read post # 73. They are the second version of samples that have been revamped to work with the animated controllers.

Edited by paul sessel
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They are new strings. Read post # 73. They are the second version of samples that have been revamped to work with the animated controllers.

Are they the 2009 style with the sealed LED's, the 2008 style with new plug ends, etc?

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Guest Jeff_Womack

Just a suggestion for those of you getting/needing replacements. There are a lot of people out there who wouldlike to have LEDs and would/can use them static. Why not get your replacements and then sell them (with cadveat about fadding) on the boards for those people who are static? I know for myself, if the price was right, it would be something I would be interested in. (I do not animate my LEDs)

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Just a suggestion for those of you getting/needing replacements. There are a lot of people out there who wouldlike to have LEDs and would/can use them static. Why not get your replacements and then sell them (with cadveat about fadding) on the boards for those people who are static? I know for myself, if the price was right, it would be something I would be interested in. (I do not animate my LEDs)

I agree with this post. Anyone who throws away a string without considering their options to sell them to others willing to replace the rectifiers is missing an opportunity. I myself would pay a fair price for failed strings knowing I can fix them for use in my show.

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I've pretty much stayed out of the threads for a while and let others do the testing to sort out the details. I'm catching up today to determine where this stands for 2009. As it currently stands, I still don't know what I am going to do.

As a customer who purchased over $3,000 worth of the 2008 LEDs, I am not pleased with the decision to provide replacements from the same factory which made the 2008 sets.

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I invested over $2800 myself and I'm not overly enthused either. And we still have to pay to ship back the old ones? I'm debating on wether I will do any future business at all just based on that. I would rather get a 100% refund if I have to pay to ship them back and they're going to be from the same supplier. I'll probably sell my stock on eBay to minimize my losses and take my business elsewhere for 2009. What really surprises me is that you can still buy these quality lights on the CDI site. Now that's amazing!

EDIT: It appears that the '08 lights have been taken off the site now except for 50 count multi's. and C6's? I'm still confused as to why we could not get lights from the '07 supplier in '08 and why we need to pay to send back product that is defective and negate the savings we were supposed to get.

What I expected to get was the '07 quality that everyone raved about and that is what I still expect and will not settle for anything else AND at no cost to me. I've paid way more than I should have in labor costs alone by repairing defective light strings and deconstructing and reconstructing things to have to pay anymore for anything less than what was expected. If the new '09 supplier is just a sgood then why would they need to have 2 different suppliers? THAT stinks!

Edited by Duke
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I am in the same ball park as both of yall. I am not pleased at all about having to pay shipping to return these )#@(&$ LED strings.

Duke your sig line reminds me.....for those of us whos spouses agree on purchases or they are not bought....This years debacle LED lights purchase will make it almost impossible to get an agreement on another 3k for LED lights:eek:

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50VA (Triad N68-X). I suspect that it has a better than 1:1 turns ratio, as you can see the voltage is greater than would be expected for 1:1 ratio.

HI, I know that with only two post now, I am a newbie here. But electronics is my life (now 50 yrs old) and though I have not used an O'Scope in some years. I am looking and see 8 div from top to bottom. And ch 2 is set to 50.0V per div. So you are showing 400 ppv which in my book is way more than I would expect. I would expect to see more like 240 ppv. So, I am wondering if this was a valid test. Second I agree it appears that the current capibility of this transformer might be just a bit shy. I would work with nothing less than 150 va.

I have to say, I am very interested in this thread for the reason that I have decided to go with LED for my first year of 2009. But after reading all of this info. I am concerned of missteping into the same mess. Is this isolated to only the LEDs supplied by CGI? Were there any troubles with strings from say GKI?

Very interesting that one gents notes that strings from the same order work ok inside but the ones outside fail around 40 degrees but come back from the dead at about 20 degrees. And if I remember correctly those ones inside also have been faded but with no ill effect, unlike the ones outside. Almost sounds like one of the components have a physical problem causing it to break free from a solder connection. That component is causing a higher voltage or the filter cap is not filtering. Also someone has suggested that a snubber be installed across the output terminals in the LOR controller. A .01uf disk in series with a 470 ohm resister is a good idea. So would a snubber of same size between both hot and neutral to ground might remove the noise.

I am also a ham radio op and we have learned that sometimes removing RFI and EMI is a bugger. No, I have not tried yet myself, just started to read this forum and planning of getting some equipment when the sales start. Hence the reason for reading these forums and learn from you masters.

Max

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And ch 2 is set to 50.0V per div. So you are showing 400 ppv which in my book is way more than I would expect. I would expect to see more like 240 ppv.

I expected to see 340V P-P. This is 120V * sqrt(2) * 2, which the sqrt(2) is the conversion from RMS to peak voltage. So it is a bit high, but not unexpectedly so, given that the transformer is lightly loaded with one string. The peak current is around 125mA, or 1/8A, or about 90mA RMS. This translates to a reading of about about 11VA, which is quite a bit lower than the transformer rating. While it would be nicer to be using a transformer with a much larger rating, I don't think that this presents an unreasonable picture, qualitatively speaking.

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I have to say, I am very interested in this thread for the reason that I have decided to go with LED for my first year of 2009. But after reading all of this info. I am concerned of missteping into the same mess. Is this isolated to only the LEDs supplied by CGI? Were there any troubles with strings from say GKI?

Max

This problem was limited to the 2008 CDI brand. The 2007 was made by another factory and was highly praised. I hear his pre season sale starting in January will be using the former factory that was used in 2007. The 2008's using the new factory had problems blowing the rectifiers and noise causing the strings that were not supposed to turn on to flicker. They are testing the 2009 from the new factory which this thread is about and they seem to have fixed the rectifier blowing problem. And most of the colors have similar fade times unless comparing 50 ct strings to 100 ct strings. However noise in the line seems to be a problem still causing the not lit strings to flicker during fades. I think what is bothering a lot of people is that people can't trade in their 2008 strings which are defective and get replacements from the factory that made the 2007 strings. They can only get the 2009 from the new factory that still has fade time and noise issues. I am better off than most as I rebuilt all my rectifiers (96) and my only concern is will they last long since they are not as weatherproof as sealed in plastic rectifiers. As long as it took to rebuild mine I feel for the people who bought much more than me.

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Hi Phil,

Good grief, its been awhile for me to do the RMS to PK or PPK. Thanks for reminding me. As for the isolation transformer. Is the 50 va the input or output? Ok, still waking up old brain cells so another dump question. You noted that the current draw is .125 A then mention something about 90 ma RMS. But has not the current going through the resister (presuming here) already been converted by the diodes and is there not a cap after the diodes. I suppose I need to find that thread were someone shows the wiring of a full wave LED string again to refresh my memory.

Nice to meet you Phil. And thanks for straighting me our and getting my brain back in action (thinking like a electronics man again).

Max

P.S. remember this magic number, .707 and twice of that is 1.414. So, if you take the rms p-p voltage * 1.414 you get true p-p voltage. Or if you have true peak voltage and want the RMS value, *.707. You have created a monster all of that stuff I learned back in tech school in 76 - 78 is coming back. Thanks

Edited by Max-Paul
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Hi Phil,

Good grief, its been awhile for me to do the RMS to PK or PPK. Thanks for reminding me. As for the isolation transformer. Is the 50 va the input or output? Ok, still waking up old brain cells so another dump question. You noted that the current draw is .125 A then mention something about 90 ma RMS. But has not the current going through the resister (presuming here) already been converted by the diodes and is there not a cap after the diodes. I suppose I need to find that thread were someone shows the wiring of a full wave LED string again to refresh my memory.

The va ratings from input to output differ by the transformer losses (wire resistance and iron core losses), I doubt that they differ by much more than 10-20%. To go from the .125 A peak to the 90 mA RMS I assumed that the current waveform was a sine wave (which it is not, but the assumption is good enough for the rough calculations that I'm making) and thus divided the peak number by sqrt(2) to get an RMS number. The resistor used for the current measurements is an external 1 Ohm resistor in series with one of the AC input prongs to the string.

If I recall right the schematics of the LED is shown earlier in this thread.

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Oh, ok, I got the picture now. So the resister is still in the AC circuit before the diodes.

Interesting Phil, Thanks for walking me through what you were doing. I am still trying to make sense about why fading would cause all of the problems. The triac is only going to turn on for a portion of the half wave (yes both halves). So this is going to lower the effective portion of the power or an amount of the available power over 1/60 of a sec. Thus once rectified and filtered the voltage applied to the LED will drop. But we do have something of a tuned circuit here. The wires are inductors and the cap is a cap. So, there is an LC circuit here. Wonder how this can be applied to the problem. Would be nice to come up with an explanation. Though I hear that Keitha has applied a fix and so far from what he told me earlier today, it works, but lots of work to make it work. Now he needs to come up with a cheap but effective means to re-pot the plugs.

Max

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Max-Paul,

You are not the only one trying to make sense of this. I do not think that I have an understanding of how the circuit in the 2008 strings is supposed to work under normal circumstances (static, non-dimming), let alone what is causing them to fail in either normal or dimming situations. One particular resistor seems to be failing catastrophically, but I don't know if that resistor is the primary cause of failure or if it is failing as the result of some other part failing (perhaps failing non-catastrophically). Just as an example, suppose it is the one of the diodes that is breaking down, causing the resistor to overload and fail before the diode totally self-destructs? And it is interesting that the failure may be happening much more frequently outdoors, in what are presumably fairly cold circumstances.

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So what is the final conclusion ????

Are the 2008/2009 CDI replacements any better.

Is it going to be worth the freight cost to return them?

If they are not going to be any better and safe, I am

not sure if I can afford the return costs.

I know many have had the opportunity to test them.

Just wanted what they think.

Thanks,

Harbs

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What is the outcome with these?

Anyone?

I don't have the answer and from what I have read the answers you get will very.

Paul has said that he has had next years sampel LEDs running on LOR in his office for many weeks. I have had this years LEDs from them running on LOR on my inside Christmas tree for six weeks with NO failures. However the ones I have doing the same thing outside have not done so well. So who knows!?!

IMO we will have no idea if we have wasted more money until we get our lights next year. Even if the "example" strings were perfect who is to say that is what we will actually get?

Sorry that may sound negative, but I expect we will not get the quality that we thought we were paying for in the first place, but are having to pay more trying to get it.

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I agree and that is exactly what is totally wrong with the entire situation.

We should be compensated with the NEW product that is being sold.

These really need to be tested OUTSIDE since the alleged "UL" lable clearly states for "INDOOR AND OUTDOOR USE". If you're using these inside your house then you're a braver man than I. I hope your house insurance is paid up and you have ample fire coverage. Keep an extinguisher nearby too.

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Well I reread the entire thread and got the following:

50ct green and 100ct green fade differently

most of the other colors fade the same

replacement sets don't have the female plugs on the back of them where you could stack multiple plugs since the blobs are there.

if you use the sets indoor supposedly they work fine, outside they go downhill quick.

2008 replacements will come from the same factory that made the first flaming/smoking rectifier design

So 2008 ppl ur at the mercy of a 2nd design that appears to have noise issues still with no real track record unless you are using them indoor.

2009 will come from the 2007 factory

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Jeez - take a chill pill! All you are doing is creating mass hysteria. The samples were just that - samples so we could get feed back. All major issues were addressed and the new product will be just fine. They are on schedule to arrive here around the end of March and than we will get them out ASAP.

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