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CDI Pre Order Teaser


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Paul:

I noticed the the multi is R,B,G,B,Y..is one of the B's a typo or is it actually red, blue, green, blue, yellow rather than orange? Thanks.

Lenny

I have been busy the last few days and hadn't noticed how far off track this has gotten! Lenny, good catch, the multi's (all the led strings) will be red, blue, green, yellow and orange. Equal amounts of each color.

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my comments a few messages ago were only in response to the earlier part of the thread where people are worried about purely the cost....

im all for trying new technology... come to my house sometime and you'll realize im not all about the status quo....

I do believe in the future we will see DC powered LED strings for our displays.. more than likely less costly versions of CCRs and fireflies..

in fact I would Like to see such... moreover I would gladly be involved in the development of such a product...

the Trouble is that computer controlled displays are still a Niche... a Niche that china may not want to jump on board with...

same as an HVAC controller i developed for Minisplits.. lots of people in the USA and europe want to be able to remotely control their minisplit HVAC... however Lots to me.. is miniscule compared to the total number of units Chigo in china makes so they want nothing to do with integrating to my controller... at least for now until energy costs skyrocket after all the new laws are passed by the greenies...

and that may be the same with lights too.. get more people to use LED's and more people to thinking of doing the unusual and people developing products.. then we will see much more interest from large manufacturing to make different types of strings...

because christmas decorations are a specialty along with a hobby.. the computer control equipment has a fairly high markup... partly to fund the software development of the various companies involved... after all what good would LOR, Dlight, AL etc be if you had to punch 1's and 0's into the PIC to sequence...

-Christopher

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... come to my house sometime and you'll realize im not all about the status quo....

-Christopher

At the risk of further hijack, what is the status quo? Many fine products have been born out of this Christmas obsession. CCR, led curtains that will play video, controller based water displays, etc. Heck, some have even incorporated pyrotechnics!

While I would love for prices to drop, there is something to be said for the niche that exists. It would not be as much fun if 10 or 20% of the decorating public did what we do.

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iresq: my comment was meant as someone mentioned if no one took a risk or went out on a technological limb we would still have SDTV, no computers etc.. probably in response to my post about how costs are higher to build new controllers versus us AC LED's on standard off the shelf LOR, AL, etc.....

personally im of the mind I enjoy showing others what we do and encourage them to get into it... to me christmas lights is not a big well-kept secret just for a few.. the more that get into it, the more innovation there will be....

and yes more off the shelf product to just plug it in and go...

anyway I guess we hijacked this thread bad enough already....

-Christopher

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iresq: my comment was meant as someone mentioned if no one took a risk or went out on a technological limb we would still have SDTV, no computers etc.. probably in response to my post about how costs are higher to build new controllers versus us AC LED's on standard off the shelf LOR, AL, etc.....

personally im of the mind I enjoy showing others what we do and encourage them to get into it... to me christmas lights is not a big well-kept secret just for a few.. the more that get into it, the more innovation there will be....

and yes more off the shelf product to just plug it in and go...

anyway I guess we hijacked this thread bad enough already....

-Christopher

Agreed. Merry Christmas!

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Will you be doing the snowflake icicles in the preorder?

I have mixed emotions about the snowflakes. While I think they are really cool - they are a pain in the drain for storage as they get all tangled up. I'm going back to a C6 icicle and would be happy to sell off my existing inventory of icicles at a substantial discount.

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Actually I think you do need new DC controllers. With a "standardized" plug used for DC lights, they could be plugged in just like all other lights. The controller would supply the power and only the controller would require AC power. People nearly always want to preserve their current investment, often at the sake of advancement and Eldoradoboys's comments are in that line of thinking. If we always though this way we'd still have standard def TV's, computers running DOS and phones with cords.

Think - if you were designing from scratch today, would you build an AC controller to control DC lights?

They are if you think with the current mind-set of AC to DC. Not if you think about what will be coming down the road.

I apologize about the thread jacking Paul... :o

Just to stay on topic, the prices look great this year! ;)

dmoore,

I am sorry but I don't really agree with you due to several points...

You seem to think that all of the issues people have with LEDs have to do with the fact they are being controlled via AC controllers... I don't think so.

The fact they are LEDs has alot to do with SOME of the effects being seen such as fading for instance, capacitive effects, forward voltage requirements, etc.

You mentioned going DC would be safer...what voltage are you going to run these at? Last time I checked DC voltage is ALOT more deadly if you have the sets wired in series to keep the current requirements low... and if you go parallel to reduce the voltage then the current requirements climb...2 or 3 amps for a set of 100 LEDs so now we need to up the gauge of wire considerably, and long wire runs become higher loss, no more reasonable prices for miles of extension cords! :eek:

If you look at some of the folks running DC controls they have fading issues that in some cases are harder to deal with than the ones the AC strands throw at us...

And really the biggest issue is the fact that the economy of scale of a niche product (for the hobbiests, us) is not going to work out to be any more inexpensive. Those rectifier diodes do not add that much cost, especially since they are spread out over 100s of thousands of LED strands produced for not only us, but also the regular folks all over that could care less about "controls" and just want to throw a few strands out, plug them in to their regular extension cord they use with a weed-eater in the summer plugged into the outlet they already have on the porch and call it finished. :cool:

I am not seeing any advantages of going DC quite frankly.

Can you do some cool niche effects that way that aren't possible using the legacy equipment we are all using now? sure...

On expensive elite products where the market might bear the big $$ you might sell SOME elite strands and controllers that could exploit the need for DC for individual pixel control and micros in line, but then that is a whole other application.

Feel free to start a new thread and we can debate... ;)

Anyone here in Indy want to get a coop together to save on shipping from Paul? :santasmileyitty:

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The fact they are LEDs has alot to do with SOME of the effects being seen such as fading for instance, capacitive effects, forward voltage requirements, etc.

I've seen LED's fade just fine - right down to 3%, so LED's fade just fine and this was on a DC controller. How is an LED "crippled" compared to an incandescent light as it relates to fading?

A small sample of LED fading issues:

* LEDs getting dimmer and dimmer at 25%

* Difference in CDI 2009 Full wave lights? and can they fade?

* Light O Rama and LEDs

* LED lifespan

You mentioned going DC would be safer...what voltage are you going to run these at? Last time I checked DC voltage is ALOT more deadly if you have the sets wired in series to keep the current requirements low... and if you go parallel to reduce the voltage then the current requirements climb...2 or 3 amps for a set of 100 LEDs so now we need to up the gauge of wire considerably, and long wire runs become higher loss, no more reasonable prices for miles of extension cords! :eek:

Just about any DC configuration is going to have voltage output less than 120 as is the case with AC. Even if they are run at 24 or 36 volts - still safer than a quarter mile of 120 cable snaking through your lawn and laying in water. I don't know where you are getting these ideas that you are going to need large guage cables for a few dozen strings of LEDs. I run two mighty-mini LED floods, with a total power consumption of 52 watts on a single 24ga CAT5 cable.

And just imagine... nearly no pop'ed GFCI's.

If you look at some of the folks running DC controls they have fading issues that in some cases are harder to deal with than the ones the AC strands throw at us...

Really? I don't have any problems fading on my LOR and d-Light DC boards - are there some PC posts that I might not be aware of?

And really the biggest issue is the fact that the economy of scale of a niche product (for the hobbiests, us) is not going to work out to be any more inexpensive. Those rectifier diodes do not add that much cost, especially since they are spread out over 100s of thousands of LED strands produced for not only us, but also the regular folks all over that could care less about "controls" and just want to throw a few strands out, plug them in to their regular extension cord they use with a weed-eater in the summer plugged into the outlet they already have on the porch and call it finished. :cool:

You are correct that a few diodes don't add much to the cost of the LED string - it's the controllers that add the cost, as I mentioned in my prior post. The cost to produce "custom" DC LED strands would cost just about nothing more than AC strings.

I am not seeing any advantages of going DC quite frankly.

I'm not that suprised... You arn't still running DOS instead of upgrading to Windoze by chance? ;)

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I've seen LED's fade just fine - right down to 3%, so LED's fade just fine and this was on a DC controller. How is an LED "crippled" compared to an incandescent light as it relates to fading?

Forward voltage... avalanche effect when the bias finally takes it into conduction... it can be worked around, but LEDs are NOT linear devices by nature... and if put in series (as in a string) this effect is additive

A small sample of LED fading issues:

* LEDs getting dimmer and dimmer at 25%

* Difference in CDI 2009 Full wave lights? and can they fade?

* Light O Rama and LEDs

* LED lifespan

Just about any DC configuration is going to have voltage output less than 120 as is the case with AC. (not true... you will see 171 volts DC after the rectifiers... peak verses RMS and rectification come into play) Even if they are run at 24 or 36 volts - still safer than a quarter mile of 120 cable snaking through your lawn and laying in water. (this portion of a "regular" display is AC (intrinsically safer than DC) and protected by GFI so no one dies...) I don't know where you are getting these ideas that you are going to need large guage cables for a few dozen strings of LEDs. (depends on how you wire the circuits... I was referring to low voltage (current goes up as voltage goes down) and if they are parallel verses series as the current is multiplied by the number of "bulbs" ... current dictates wire size, not voltage) I run two mighty-mini LED floods, with a total power consumption of 52 watts on a single 24ga CAT5 cable. (Again I would need to know the rest of the equation (voltage, number of conuctors used, etc.) but I would guess that no one including your homeowners Insurance, UL/CSA, NEC or any other agency would sign off or approve that use)

And just imagine... nearly no pop'ed GFCI's.

(Nope, you removed the ability of the protection to work)

;)

Really? I don't have any problems fading on my LOR and d-Light DC boards - are there some PC posts that I might not be aware of?

Check out Wirekat's website and watch the videos of MR16 LED bulbs, or the posts on LOR regarding the DC controller... trying to do a firmware fix... depending on how the LED assemblies are built requires different "fixes"

You are correct that a few diodes don't add much to the cost of the LED string - it's the controllers that add the cost, as I mentioned in my prior post. The cost to produce "custom" DC LED strands would cost just about nothing more than AC strings.

I'm not that suprised... You arn't still running DOS instead of upgrading to Windoze by chance? ;)

No actually I am an EE and have been designing both AC and DC control circuitry for a living for almost 30 years for commercial, industrial, and military use. ;)

The cost analysis on controllers you are quoting is flawed BTW...

Comparing apples to apples, LOR PC board assembled $121.95 verses LOR DC board assembled 119.95... 2 dollars difference.

But wait... we have to add a power supply to the DC board to actually make things even... :eek: so lets say you get a Chinese surplus one for $20 (since your a smart shopper) so now the DC solution is up to $131.95.

They both still need enclosures, heatsinks, cabling, etc.

Now do you understand why I am not seeing this controller savings your talking about? :confused:

2 mighty mini floods on DC... fair enough.

Now I need to have approx 10,000 LEDs on strands to do roof outlines, shrubs, tree, etc. (what I have this year) can you describe exactly how I can come out ahead using DC?

What would I have to do?

I am having NO problems dimming... (using AC) sealed construction Holiday Creations for the most part... got them on clearance via retail outlets at about $ 2.50 a strand, using common extension cords, 3 year warranty on all of them. If I need a replacement for some reason (and don't already have it in my back-up stock)... run down the street and pick up what I need.

If I suddenly have a change of heart... I can slap an incandescent strand on without blinking an eye.

(as a matter of fact I still use clear incandescents to add "warmth" to my display, white LEDs still don't cut it in my opinion)

And I am missing out on what? :confused:

In fairness to Paul's thread, as I mentioned we can discuss this in a NEW thread if you would like to post one, and others can join in and provide input as well.

My sincere apologies to Paul.... :o

And now back to your regularly scheduled program... :rolleyes:

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I think this pre-order sale is a great deal.

For those looking for the best quality (full-wave) LED lights ... this is the place to plan your 2010 purchases from, IMHO.

Paul has proven himself to be a first class operation and has many many satisfied customers here to testify to both his products and service.

:):):)

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Great pricing once again.

Oh I love Paul's lights and will be buying the warm white icicles to change out my roof line plus more C6 RBW. **** I should replace all my coro characters with M6's as well.

I bought back in 2007 and haven't lost a bulb/strand in 2yrs. Color and durability is crazy. Quality products and the best customer service ever!!

His lights run my 16ft Steel "Z" tree and my arches.

Thanks Paul,

-jds

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I have mixed emotions about the snowflakes. While I think they are really cool - they are a pain in the drain for storage as they get all tangled up. I'm going back to a C6 icicle and would be happy to sell off my existing inventory of icicles at a substantial discount.

Paul which icicles are you saying will be a "substantial discount"? Snowflake?

Also I know you only do ww and blue icicles but I will add my name to the list that wants green and red ones to complete a dream I've always had. :-)

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Hard to think about spending a lot of money already for more lights but this is the sale to do it with for sure.

Paul has the best deal and customer service out there.

Only thing I am worried about is where am I going to put a pallet of spt wire? :giggle:

I blew through so much of it for this year and with what I want to do next year, I know I will need a very large amount of it !!

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so why doesnt somneone put this debate to rest and build up say 16 custom strings of LED's and run them in their display next year in DC and see what they do......

I run the Heck out of my MR-16 LED's in my display... and so far havenbt had any blow up... i even put a couple in my low voltage track lights inside for a festive effect next to my theatre screen...

however like another post.. I like the flexibility I have with my current controllers... being able to swap out an LED for a regular set if needbe...

looking at the quality of these CDI strands I recently got.. im definately going to be IN on this group buy... the wires look much nicer and seem heavier than any of the LED's ive picked up at the *** box stores.. ive only had a few days to play but so far they seem to dim great.. in fact with a single C-9 bulb on the channel they dim close to incandescents... at the far low end of the spectrum they are a bit brighter.. but thats easy to handle in sequencing...

since I tend to change the layout of my display every year all my sequences have to be redone each year anyway.....

great lookin lights Paul!

-Christopher

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Paul,

i want to use my tax money to pay for the lights. i usually don't get my w2 till the end of January. will you keep it open for a few weeks in feb? can i pay for it all when i place the order? Thanks for the great info!

man I like that idea... I could buy even more lights than I already had planned on... :)

-Christopher

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man I like that idea... I could buy even more lights than I already had planned on... :)

-Christopher

I'm kind of in a bind this year. In order to get the pricing that I will be offering I have to get my order placed by the end of January. The reason being:

UL requirements for LED lights are changing once again, effective March 15. Based upon all the companies that sell a changable LED light set, the two prongs (that connect to the power) that have been some kind of steel are now going to be copper to prevent rusting. In our sets, they are a one piece sealed construction so that has never been an issue from this factory. But. . . this is going to increase the cost of the string especially with copper up again to close to historical highs.

In order to get last years UL tag put on the order before March 15- the order needs to be placed at the end of January due to the fact the factories close down for two weeks in February with the Chinese New Year. With that said, I am going to place my order at the end of January. I probably will go back and order some more later in the Spring, but they will be at the higher pricing.

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UL requirements for LED lights are changing once again, effective March 15. Based upon all the companies that sell a changable LED light set, the two prongs (that connect to the power) that have been some kind of steel are now going to be copper to prevent rusting...... but they will be at the higher pricing.

SOOOOOO.....the rust problem that has been discussed at length should be solved in 2 years. Since the big box stores will order early for the same reason and next christmas their product will be "steel". The following christmas all led lights with UL will be copper.

The general public will probably have sticker shock with the price of LEDS (depending on how much more the copper ones cost) since a lot of people already balk at the cost compared to incand. minis. ....maybe in 2 years with the leds being more massssssproduced that will compensate for the increased cost from the use of copper.

However, I'm betting to get a GOOD product we'll still have to order from good venders like Paul. (Full Wave, quality construction, .....).

OK i'll stop thinking out-loud.

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