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superdave1225

About Fake Cameras and Signs

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Hello, all I am a new member here and am looking forward to sharing with all the members here as well as learning more than I already know.

About using fake cameras and signs saying you have a camera in operation, I would like to share on that issue. I have been in property management for many years and yes, vandals are a real pain. When at a meeting I brought up using fake cameras and posting cameras in use signs, it was referred to the company lawyer for advice. He said that using fake is ok until maybe something happens, then your ordered by a court to turn over your recordings that people think you have from your equipment you do not have. Don't remember all the legal mumble jumble but in short had to do with presenting false security, and could be sued for making someone think they was safe due to cameras protecting them in the area if something happened to them.

Anyway just thought I would pass this info on.

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Hello, all I am a new member here and am looking forward to sharing with all the members here as well as learning more than I already know.

About using fake cameras and signs saying you have a camera in operation, I would like to share on that issue. I have been in property management for many years and yes, vandals are a real pain. When at a meeting I brought up using fake cameras and posting cameras in use signs, it was referred to the company lawyer for advice. He said that using fake is ok until maybe something happens, then your ordered by a court to turn over your recordings that people think you have from your equipment you do not have. Don't remember all the legal mumble jumble but in short had to do with presenting false security, and could be sued for making someone think they was safe due to cameras protecting them in the area if something happened to them.

Anyway just thought I would pass this info on.

That would certainly be true in that scenario because your tenants would believe the mgmt company was providing security. That would not apply for a homeowner putting such signs on his own property.

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Guest csx5861

That would certainly be true in that scenario because your tenants would believe the mgmt company was providing security. That would not apply for a homeowner putting such signs on his own property.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if a rape (God forbid) or any illegal activity happened in front of your home and you have such signage, guess what, you WILL be asked to hand over the video to law enforcement officials and if you don't and tell them it's all a ruse, you can sure enough be charged for fraud and serve time in your local jail!

Fake Cameras and signs ARE NOT a good thing to have out in any area of public thorofare as they CAN and POSSIBLY WILL land you in hot water.

Now if they are INSIDE your home, that is your private area, but if these "fake cameras" are pointed to where they are supposedly filming/vidoeing public access areas, you could be in for someone filing a lawsuit on you and could end up costing you 10,000 times what you paid for those fake cameras and signs!

So be forwarned. This is why I won't use ANY FAKE criteria, if it doesn't really work, I'm not going to use it and risk hefty lawsuits and trouble I could have avoided by NOT placing such signs and fake cameras.

Even cities and towns know not to use fake cameras ans signs, because it can lead to bigger legal issues and hefty fines or settlements.

So the person that was saying their lawyer says it's a bad idea, is correct and this goes for ANY PUBLIC ACCESS area that may be in line of sight of such fake camera equipment, as well as signage that says "premises under video surveillance" that is used in conjunction with these NON-WORKING fakes. Don't do it, Don't use them and don't risk the troubles they could incur on the property/business owner!

Clay in Orlando, FL

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I'd like to hear a lawyer's opinion on this, for private property. I agree that on public or semi-public (like a common area of an apartment building), it makes sense. But just because I have cameras on my own property, I'm expected to always be recording off of them? I don't doubt the police might ask if they notice cameras pointing toward a crime scene, but I really don't think I could get into trouble if I don't happen to have footage at the given moment they wanted. After all, unlike in a public area, the cameras are there for MY security, not to provide security for the general public.

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I have to agree with Tim on this one -> I want to hear from a lawyer.

The OP makes good points, but only for commercial setting. As for residential, I think that all bets are off.

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Im with Tim here...

All 4 of my Cameras are pointing at my Privite Property which would be the decorations that I have spent hard earned time and money on so in return my security cameras and signage are for my own use and protection and not to protect anyone who comes onto the property during show hours... Businesses sell the fake cameras and fake security system/camera stickers to provide warning to suspective would be burgulars so it doesn't seem like that big of a problem or homeowners who use the products would be suing the manufacturers of the fake supplies.

Also I have been in a few Mom and Pop stores as well as a Dollar General in my area who use Fake/Dummy Cameras because I have seen the CCD labels etc printed on the fakes... and they are for public protection per say because a robbery could happen in a store not affecting the store owners property... so isnt there some kind of code for public businesses that would prohibit this?

Another note I did see a Fake Security Camera topic with a posting from Buckeyelights about his fake in broad sight. It was under the security forum that has been Closed as of yesterday so I wonder if there is any truth to this because as privite homeowners we use Cameras in a entirely different way...

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if a rape (God forbid) or any illegal activity happened in front of your home and you have such signage, guess what, you WILL be asked to hand over the video to law enforcement officials and if you don't and tell them it's all a ruse, you can sure enough be charged for fraud and serve time in your local jail!

I hate to say it but that's ridiculous. You may be asked for the video but there's nothing criminal about not having it. You're confused between criminal liability and civil liability. There is nothing criminal about putting up such signs or cameras, you can even tell the police to pound sand if they ask for the video. They'll just come back with a court order for it and then you'll have to give it up. But if it doesn't exist, that's not fraud, there's nothing law enforcement can do about that.

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I hate to say it but that's ridiculous. You may be asked for the video but there's nothing criminal about not having it. You're confused between criminal liability and civil liability. There is nothing criminal about putting up such signs or cameras, you can even tell the police to pound sand if they ask for the video. They'll just come back with a court order for it and then you'll have to give it up. But if it doesn't exist, that's not fraud, there's nothing law enforcement can do about that.

I mean you never know maybe for some reason your VCR didn't record the night something happened on your property or you cleaned the DVR off because you inspected everything the next day and there is no need to keep the security cam footage... Technology is not perfect and there could always be a error on a persons personal security system.

I dont see how you could be held accountable for a technological error because they happen un-expectidly.... There is more to this than we are aware of currently.

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As far as fake camera's go, if you find one that actually looks close to a real one, you are going to pay as much if not more than the cost of an inexpensive real one. So, you might as well get the real one and do some recording so you have something to give the law if they want it.

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As far as fake camera's go, if you find one that actually looks close to a real one, you are going to pay as much if not more than the cost of an inexpensive real one.

I used to always laugh at the way fake cameras looked (similar to a 1980's camera maybe) but this year I saw Harbor Freight has a little fake dome camera which is pretty convincing. (They still have the 80's style one too)

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I have two fake security signs but they are in locations that you won't see them unless you are complace you shouldn't be like up in the yard among the decorations

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I used to always laugh at the way fake cameras looked (similar to a 1980's camera maybe) but this year I saw Harbor Freight has a little fake dome camera which is pretty convincing. (They still have the 80's style one too)

Here's the one that looks pretty real:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=95154

And here's the one that looks pretty fake:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=94030

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Some of the Fake looking Fake Cameras are pretty realistic from other retailers like Mail Order Mags. They come with a Blinking LED and also rotate back and forth with the motion sensor placed in the fake lens. Still they are only $10 look much more real than the fake Harbor Freight one!!

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What would be the purpose of a fake camera? I would bet that most Christmas display vandalism is done by bored teenage kids who wouldn't notice if you had a dozen cameras.

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Guest csx5861

I'd like to hear a lawyer's opinion on this, for private property. I agree that on public or semi-public (like a common area of an apartment building), it makes sense. But just because I have cameras on my own property, I'm expected to always be recording off of them? I don't doubt the police might ask if they notice cameras pointing toward a crime scene, but I really don't think I could get into trouble if I don't happen to have footage at the given moment they wanted. After all, unlike in a public area, the cameras are there for MY security, not to provide security for the general public.

This ONLY APPLIES TO FAKE CAMERAS with LEGAL SIGNS STATING 24 HOUR VIDEO RECORDING IS TAKING PLACE.

If you have a sign with a REAL CAMERA, there are always chances their may not be footage. But if asked for footage and they find out the camera IS INCAPABLE of actually recording with a sign that states LEGAL PRECEDENT. You could be in for a long ride with a lot of lawyers and expenses.

(I just happen to take some law classes and this was discussed in class a couple of years ago, so I'm pretty certain you could find yourself in a lot of hot water in this scenario. And is again, why I won't put out such signs or "fake cameras" on my property. I don't need the legal nightmares and headaches that could ensue!)

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Guest csx5861

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if a rape (God forbid) or any illegal activity happened in front of your home and you have such signage, guess what, you WILL be asked to hand over the video to law enforcement officials and if you don't and tell them it's all a ruse, you can sure enough be charged for fraud and serve time in your local jail!

I hate to say it but that's ridiculous. You may be asked for the video but there's nothing criminal about not having it. You're confused between criminal liability and civil liability. There is nothing criminal about putting up such signs or cameras, you can even tell the police to pound sand if they ask for the video. They'll just come back with a court order for it and then you'll have to give it up. But if it doesn't exist, that's not fraud, there's nothing law enforcement can do about that.

All I can say to that is use them and learn the hard way if something does happen. If the camera can see outside the "zone" of your property, all bets are off as to what is going to happen to the homeowner for posting a plainly visible sign that states actual recording is going on.

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Guest csx5861

Im with Tim here...

Also I have been in a few Mom and Pop stores as well as a Dollar General in my area who use Fake/Dummy Cameras because I have seen the CCD labels etc printed on the fakes... and they are for public protection per say because a robbery could happen in a store not affecting the store owners property... so isnt there some kind of code for public businesses that would prohibit this?

Yes, the code is for every 2 fake cameras there is a REAL HIDDEN ONE that covers the area the two fakes appear to be. If the store is not following this, they can get into some hot water for just using fakes, especially when it comes to shop lifting charges on someone and no video or any other witness(es) to back up the claim. Especially if the perp has already gotten rid of the merchandise they were seen stealing. I used to work for Dollar General and for every fake camera you see, there are at least 2, if not more, cameras YOU DON'T SEE! Can't say if this applies to all states or not, just know in Florida you could possibly get into some hot water using fake cameras and actual legal signage together. No sign and using a fake, then you're covered, what makes it "fraudulent" is the addition of the sign stating that 24-hour video surveillance is going on, when, in fact, it is not, because you're using a fake camera.

Edited by csx5861

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personally the whole thing is a stretch. Why in the world would someone commit a visible crime in front of such a highly lit area

as for my fake signs, the surviellance I refer to says nothing of cameras or recordings but rather refers to the fact that I look out the front window at least two dozen times a day

Edited by Philip

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According to this kind of logic that if you have real security cameras then you must have signs up stating that they are really really real and not fakes. Otherwise you are going to have criminals crying that the tapes should not be allowed to be used in court because

they thought there was only fake security cameras in use. As to police being able to use your video cameras we had an incidence just last summer that almost led to riots that was resolved due to a neighbors security camera that was pointed the wrong way and showed nothing but picked up all the sounds. It had to do with

http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index.ssf/2010/01/felony_arrest_warrant_charges.html

So it is not always what is seen but what is heard. Talking about your security cameras being used for something other then what you had intended and this was just in our paper tonight.

As for security my display sits at a closed commercial location all season and has never been messed with. Don't worry knocked on wood already.

Edited by overeazy
link

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I can't believe you said that Paul, expect to hear from my no good lawyer:)

If this is the case chalk another stupid one up for sue happy people, and no good lawyers.

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Phil I can understand how you could miss the point of my post. See right from the start the original post got a little off subject and one of our members from Orlando said

"Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if a rape (God forbid) or any illegal activity happened in front of your home and you have such signage, guess what, you WILL be asked to hand over the video to law enforcement officials and if you don't and tell them it's all a ruse, you can sure enough be charged for fraud and serve time in your local jail!"

I was just pointing out that many times video cameras catch video or in this case sound of things for which they were never really intentioned. I am sure this homeowner had the camera out for his security to catch a crime taking place not involving him. And that the police will ask to see any video tape.

So see it really didn't have anything to do with the fake cameras but more the posts that followed it. I just hope I didn't break any forum rules here and its nice to know that you are no longer MIA from these parts.

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As I read the thread, it has to do with you could be liable in some way for posting a sign in public that isn't true (like 24hr surveillance sign when they are really fake cameras).

I have "trespassers will be shot on sight" signs up around my property - I never really intended to shoot anybody, but in light of possible liability it looks like I will have to shoot one or two just to keep myself out of trouble.

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As I read the thread, it has to do with you could be liable in some way for posting a sign in public that isn't true (like 24hr surveillance sign when they are really fake cameras).

I have "trespassers will be shot on sight" signs up around my property - I never really intended to shoot anybody, but in light of possible liability it looks like I will have to shoot one or two just to keep myself out of trouble.

Lol. I guess you better. : )

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