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FrankAZ

Franks Mighty Mini LED lights!

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OK, 200ma at 24vdc and what do you get for a resistor. Now lets change the configuration so that we require 400ma at 12vdc, same answer!! Now lets look at the voltage drop that you find in the wire. Drop that 24vdc value by two or three volts and see what current you now have at your floods. How bright are they now?

I'm not sure I completely follow the logic here. You indicate 200ma at 24vdc and 400ma at 12vdc. That sounds good. Then you say "same answer" but they are not the same answer one is 200ma the other is 400ma.

So, lets make sure I understand the basics here. As voltage goes up (E), current (I) goes down for a given power (P). So, ohms law would be:

Power/Watts(P) = Voltage(E) x Current/Amps(I)

12v x 400ma = 4.8 watts

24v x 200ma = 4.8 watts

"Real world" examples of this would be: The reason that a 3/4" aluminum wire running to your house at 120v can carry 200amps but a 1" aluminum wire can feed your entire neighborhood at 10,000+ volts.

So, as voltage goes up, the level of current required for the same power goes down. So... a wire doesn't "care" about the voltage (yes there are insulation limits to wire but that doesn't apply here) - it handles a given number of amps with a set resistance (ohms) over a distance.

As this discussion is referencing CAT5 so we have current carrying of CAT5 being 577 milliamps per wire. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable) - again, it doesn't matter if the voltage is 12v or 24v - it's 577ma per wire.

Using your sample - you could run 5.77 "lights" at 200ma/24vdc OR you could run 2.885 "lights" at 400ma/12vdc on the same 24ga CAT5 pair of wires.

There is also another advantage here for using 24v since the design uses dropping resistors - less overall voltage drop. The amount of voltage drop at 12v will be higher than that of 24v. From this calculator: http://www.currentsolutions.com/vdrop.php

12v/400ma/24ga/200ft = 10.136vdc at the light (a drop of 16%)

24v/200ma/24ga/200ft = 23.068vdc at the light (a drop of 4%)

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_drop:

"Over long distances, larger conductors become expensive, and it is preferable to redesign the circuit to operate at a higher voltage. Doubling the voltage halves the current required to deliver the same amount of power, halving the voltage drop, and an additional doubling in efficiency is realized because that drop is a smaller fraction of the total voltage."

I think all of the data I've posted above appears to show a good reason why the Mighty-Mini is designed for 24v and not 12v. Please correct my data if it is wrong.

Now that the resistors are 'right', what will the next LED failures be chocked up to? Is that what you want in a product you spend your money on?

If the only car made was a Yugo - it would sell like hotcakes. Saying you shouldn't purchase a DIY product because it isn't "good enough" when there isn't something in the same "range" is just silly. Even if the Aether and the LOR flood come out, I'm going to bet that it will still be cheaper to purchase MM's, a power supply and a $100 DC controller.

Now let's talk specs. Would you buy a product that DRAMATICALLY alters their specs just to look better? The cool white LEDs that the MM flood uses are rated at 110,000mcd at 140 degree beam angle, that's 454.763 lumens per LED, does that sound right? And they are made by who?

Specs in LEDs are junk as far as I'm concerned. What matters is if it works for what you want it to too. I found that 8 of the MM floods did an excellent job lighting the entire front of my two story, brick home with 10 facets, 2ft off the brick and looked good (as shown in the photos) even from 2 blocks away.

I can tell you that there is no standard voltage.

I agree completely - the design should determine the voltage required. Frank determined 24v was best and that's what we have. "wishing" it to be 12v as Tim would like, will not change how it was designed.

Does that case look familiar? Remember, these pictures are TWO years old...Completely self contained, including constant current DMX controller and power supply, all in the same package as the MM.

Yes yes.... it may be two years ago but it still can not be purchased. RJ's shown his prototype (with DMX) and I suspect I'll have a few built by the summer.

That said, I still purchased another batch of 8 mighty mini floods (24 total) as they fit into a place between a "full" flood like what RJ or maybe LOR will be offering.

I believe that your TV and your computer monitor do white just fine? They do that by mixing RG and B and have no white 'channel'.Floods that keep the R, G and B in a tight configuration , like a TV, do not have this problem. When RGB is done properly, white is NOT required.

Look, has white, that's a pure white cabinet!! And where is that color fringing thing that you people say exists when mixing RGB? There are shadows but they are not in 'colors'.

While it may be true, the distance between the LED's has a large effect on mixing. So, if the LED's are not right on top of each other as they are with a monitor or TV, the mixing can look poor.

Another advantage to the Mighty Mini's having a fourth white channel is that some people have switched out the white with UV so that they have a more functional flood for halloween. Yet another advantage for having RGB+W is that you can use them as "blinders" - you end up with pure white and the mixed white for an over all brighter white.

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What is the same are the LEDs and the proper current being supplied to each one, that was my logic.

Remember we are talking current here and those voltage percentages mean nothing till you calculate current. And also remember that there are different resistors out there depending if you used 12 or 24volts, (I am using a baseline 60 and 120ohms for these calculations) so the voltage drops of 16% and 4% don't hold true current wise. At 24 volts, a voltage drop of 2 volts results in a CURRENT loss of 9%, and at 12vdc that 2 volts results in a current loss of 17%. Thats 2x not 4x. Yes, a two volt drop at 24 volts would yeild less current loss at the flood (down to 183ma) and a 2 volt drop at 12 volts would bring it down to 166ma, however, my point is that a constant current supply will keep the current the same despite voltage drops or length of cable. Same current if through a 1 foot cable, or a 100 foot cable.

Now that I feel that I have broken some of the myths, rumors and false information that was being given out about drivers, color mixing and price probability, maybe a product (whatever flood) can be marketed on it's merits instead of hype and misinformation. And if I see any more misinformation being given, I will point that out as well. I will not argue which one is better, I think I made my point to those that will listen. Misinformation to sell a product I, and others will continue to 'correct'.

Good luck in your endevours,

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You can argue with Craig till you are blue in the face, it's not going to make a difference to people like me.

I decided I wanted floods after seeing Gary Martin's Halloween show. I did some research, even ordered some MR-16s. When I weighed all the options I decided on the Mighty Minis. Yes I saw the ranting posts form Mr. Marshall over the last two years, they didn't exactly sell me on his product, neither does this most recent one. In my experience if someone has to keep telling everyone how "great" something is, it must not be that great. The Mighty Mini's aren't perfect, they aren't the "end all, be all" of LED floodlight options, but they are available NOW, they are AFFORDABLE, they are something I can DIY without feeling overwhelmed, and they MEET MY NEEDS. Now, the XMAS Flood is a fine unit, but it does none of the above. I'm sure they will be fabulous if they ever make it to market but for now, I have found a solution for my display this year and it's called the Mighty Mini. And no amount of arguing back and forth by either side is going to now or in the future change my ability to make up my own mind. But by all means, let the beatings continue, they are doing so much for each of your characters.

Edited by magii

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What is the same are the LEDs and the proper current being supplied to each one, that was my logic.

Remember we are talking current here and those voltage percentages mean nothing till you calculate current. And also remember that there are different resistors out there depending if you used 12 or 24volts, (I am using a baseline 60 and 120ohms for these calculations) so the voltage drops of 16% and 4% don't hold true current wise. At 24 volts, a voltage drop of 2 volts results in a CURRENT loss of 9%, and at 12vdc that 2 volts results in a current loss of 17%. Thats 2x not 4x. Yes, a two volt drop at 24 volts would yeild less current loss at the flood (down to 183ma) and a 2 volt drop at 12 volts would bring it down to 166ma, however, my point is that a constant current supply will keep the current the same despite voltage drops or length of cable. Same current if through a 1 foot cable, or a 100 foot cable.

Now that I feel that I have broken some of the myths, rumors and false information that was being given out about drivers, color mixing and price probability, maybe a product (whatever flood) can be marketed on it's merits instead of hype and misinformation. And if I see any more misinformation being given, I will point that out as well. I will not argue which one is better, I think I made my point to those that will listen. Misinformation to sell a product I, and others will continue to 'correct'.

Good luck in your endevours,

Excellent - I'm glad we are on the same page about the technical reasons why the 24v is better than 12v in the mighty mini flood design. All confusion resolved!

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Excellent - I'm glad we are on the same page about the technical reasons why the 24v is better than 12v in the mighty mini flood design. All confusion resolved!

It's just that your numbers were a little off, favoring your argument, something I see allot of. I think I will leave it to others to point these things out from now on.

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It's just that your numbers were a little off, favoring your argument, something I see allot of. I think I will leave it to others to point these things out from now on.

All my numbers were based on sample data you provided and they were based on ohms law. I welcome specific input as to where my assumptions and calculations were incorrect. They do "favor" the Mighty Mini as this is the Mighty Mini discussion and it isn't a discussion of what the Mighty Mini "could" be, instead what it is.

Thanks!

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I decided I wanted floods after seeing Gary Martin's Halloween show.

I'm always impressed with what Gary Martin does in his display. His idea of putting the mighty mini floods inside of his snowmen was excellent and shows some real out of the box thinking.

http://www.vimeo.com/8276118

:28 - Snowmen turn blue

4:05 - Snowmen from red, green, blue, white, purple...

He also appears to have them up-lighting his rees and as floods on the house.

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I'm always impressed with what Gary Martin does in his display. His idea of putting the mighty mini floods inside of his snowmen was excellent and shows some real out of the box thinking.

http://www.vimeo.com/8276118

:28 - Snowmen turn blue

4:05 - Snowmen from red, green, blue, white, purple...

He also appears to have them up-lighting his rees and as floods on the house.

Nope, the floods are regular incands. Maybe next year :giggle: His Halloween video did use the floods on the house. The MM's were so bright we both nearly had migraines setting them up while running test sequences. Gary is a great guy and was instrumental in helping me get started this last year.

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Craig, I just saw LOR's Video of the new XMAS flood, and I have to say, it's a totally different beast that what you had designed, and the mighty mini. They chose custom housing and a custom milled heat sinc, in addition to a custom controller board. While it's nice to see they are going thru these steps, Your talking about two different beasts, and your getting very defensive here, and I don't think you see it. You keep saying "those that don't wait will be disappointed" and "Spend your money wisely." I can say I'm going to spend my money wisely, and tell LOR that I can't purchase an XMAS flood because all you do is put down every other product. At one point you "show" us the output difference between XMAS and MM, Saying XMAS is brighter. Take a look at the pics, you compare 2x XMAS floods pointed at a white wall of a 1 story house compared to 4x MM pointed at a stone house 3 stories or so high. Not Apples to Apples.

Mighty Mini, for the DIY'er, is supplied as parts. Has been available for a year or so, has a track record, is being used in a few displays.

XMAS Flood, for the Plug and Play Decorator (Nor a problem, different market). Not available, No ETA. Only record of these are photos you provide about how they work & Output. And from what I can tell has never been used in a display.

While I respect the time and effort you put into the XMAS, the way you kept saying it's coming, it's almost here, teasing everyone with your mysterious posts, and now your sometimes offensive posts, turns me off to any LOR product, or and XMAS flood, and originally they were on my list.

Now please, lets get back to Mighty Mini Discussion.

Edited by pmcpa
spelling!

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Not to divert from the arguing about 12V vs 24V, but....

I just learned about the Mighty Minis, and have a couple of questions:

Let's say I want to build and control 12 of these babies.

Assume my placement does not permit daisy chaining pairs of lights, so I will need to run 12 CAT5 cables from the controller.

Can I power and control all 12 using a single CMB-16D and two of the 150W supplies most of you seem to be using?

My numbers are as follows:

12 lights @ 24W each = 288 W, so I need 2 150W supplies.

Each half of the CMB would control 6 lights.

Each light needs 4 CMB channels (R, G, B, W), so I would use one channel group to control 2 lights and the other to control 4 lights.

By the way, how many of you actually use white for christmas? Would it enhance strobes by doing a shimmer?

Do my numbers seem to make sense?

I assume you place your CMB in a plastic enclosure. Can you recommend one?

And what do you do with your power supplies? Do you keep them near your controller?

Finally, it LOOKS like Kostyun is doing another co-op buy of bare boards in March. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.

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Anyone know when the Coop boards are going to ship? Kostyun has taken the store website down and I haven't received any communication yet. Anyone hear anything?

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Anyone know when the Coop boards are going to ship? Kostyun has taken the store website down and I haven't received any communication yet. Anyone hear anything?

Same here!!! only thing I got was a out of stock email then a order confirmation email

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Not to divert from the arguing about 12V vs 24V, but....

I think it was settled with the math that I posted - 24v is the proper selection for these. :)

Let's say I want to build and control 12 of these babies.

Assume my placement does not permit daisy chaining pairs of lights, so I will need to run 12 CAT5 cables from the controller.

Can I power and control all 12 using a single CMB-16D and two of the 150W supplies most of you seem to be using?

Skip the 150w power supplies and go with a single 350w power supply that will completely cover you. You can find them on ebay for around $40.

My numbers are as follows:

12 lights @ 24W each = 288 W, so I need 2 150W supplies.

Each half of the CMB would control 6 lights.

Each light needs 4 CMB channels (R, G, B, W), so I would use one channel group to control 2 lights and the other to control 4 lights.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here - if you have 6 on one half, and six on the second half, it should be 3 lights per channel group (4 individual channels):

1-4: 3 lights/2

5-8: 3 lights/2

9-12: 3 lights/4

12-16: 3 lights/4

By the way, how many of you actually use white for christmas? Would it enhance strobes by doing a shimmer?

I found white to be useful in my display last year...white being a pretty primary color after red and green: http://www.vimeo.com/8212552

You can get a bit of a "strobing" effect out of the MMFL's as disucssed elseware on PC.

Do my numbers seem to make sense?

I assume you place your CMB in a plastic enclosure. Can you recommend one?

The size of your box will depend on the size of your power supply and the power useage (keeping in mind leaving enough air flow).

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Chris,

That is what I got too (confirmation email) but saying they were out of stock. I went to check my order status the other day and the store was down. I'm just curious how soon I will have the boards I ordered. I ordered 8. Really in no hurry for them.

Kenny

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Frank did mention earlier on at least one board that it would be 2-3 weeks after order to get the boards to him. So assuming he placed an order on Mar 2 or 3, it's probably at least the week of 3/21 for him to get the PCBs. He then needs to sort, pack and ship all the boards, which I expect is a fairly large quantity.

Last week of March/first week of April is probably a good time to think about getting anything at your house.

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Chris,

Really in no hurry for them.

Kenny

No big hurry either here.....just like to know where my money is at....:giggle:

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Frank did mention earlier on at least one board that it would be 2-3 weeks after order to get the boards to him. So assuming he placed an order on Mar 2 or 3, it's probably at least the week of 3/21 for him to get the PCBs. He then needs to sort, pack and ship all the boards, which I expect is a fairly large quantity.

Last week of March/first week of April is probably a good time to think about getting anything at your house.

I guess I never saw any of those details. It would have been nice of Frank to post a message when he took down the store that filled in details of when we could expect shipment. I know he's dependent on his supplier but even a 30-60 day window would have been enough for me. Communication is always key to keeping folks happy, just ask Travis...:giggle:

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I guess I never saw any of those details. It would have been nice of Frank to post a message when he took down the store that filled in details of when we could expect shipment. I know he's dependent on his supplier but even a 30-60 day window would have been enough for me. Communication is always key to keeping folks happy, just ask Travis...:giggle:

I am sure this was on his site some where but he did put this in his org post over at DIY ....

attachment.php?attachmentid=30668&stc=1&d=1268278587

Harrison

post-4651-129571204855_thumb.jpg

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For those of us who purchased the MM boards, Northern Tool is having a sale tomorrow 10-75% off

Their 500w portable halogen worklight is already marked down to $6.79

Nice little units but may require a pass or two with the green spray can

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200309783_200309783

Are these confirmed as being a 'bolt in' replacement for the standard housings being used? These look a little larger - like the one used on the Lynx Aether.

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